Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/06/2000 03:15 PM House RES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
JOINT MEETING
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 6, 2000
3:15 p.m.
SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman
Senator Pete Kelly
Senator Jerry Mackie
Senator Lyda Green
Senator Sean Parnell
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair
Representative John Cowdery
Representative John Harris
Representative Carl Morgan
Representative Jim Whitaker
HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chair
Representative Reggie Joule
Representative Mary Kapsner
Representative Ramona Barnes
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Representative Scott Ogan
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARING
Alaska Board of Game
Leo Keeler - Fairbanks
- NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATIONS FORWARDED
[NOTE: Also heard by the Senate Resources Committee was SENATE
BILL NO. 267, "An Act relating to management of game." For
minutes pertaining to that portion of the meeting, see Senate
minutes for this same date.]
PREVIOUS ACTION
No previous action to record.
WITNESS REGISTER [Confirmation only]
LEO KEELER, Appointee to the Alaska Board of Game
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented testimony and answered questions.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 00-08, SIDE A [SENATE RESOURCES TAPE NUMBER]
Number 001
CHAIRMAN HALFORD of the Senate Resources Standing Committee
called the joint meeting with the House Resources Standing
Committee to order at 3:15 p.m.
CONFIRMATION HEARING - Alaska Board of Game
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced that the first order of business would
be the confirmation hearing on the appointment of Leo Keeler to
the Alaska Board of Game. He noted that committee members should
have copies of Mr. Keeler's letter to the Governor, as well as a
letter dated February 24.
LEO KEELER gave the following testimony via teleconference from
Fairbanks. His letter to the Governor contains his background of
50 years. He has lived in Alaska since 1981 and has hunted most
of his life. He has a background in forestry and public service
and has been involved in economic programs for communities. As a
real estate specialist, he deals with a lot of legal issues
surrounding land conveyances. He has a good understanding of the
legal process and how to work with the public in that regard. He
worked with the guide industry and the public on the Owsichek
decision and is trying to rebuild a structure to retain guiding
as a viable industry - a critical element of wildlife management
in Alaska.
MR. KEELER explained that as he developed his wildlife
photography business, he became more aware of the public's desire
to see and view wildlife and the public's interest in management.
He is offering his skills to help the board reach sound decisions
that are supported by the public. He would also try to get
everyone to work together for the same purposes. In this light,
he has studied the situation in McGrath and come up with some
ideas he'd like to present to get out of the deadlock.
MR. KEELER said he thinks the Governor is looking at the lack of
support partly based on the fact that some biologists are saying
they don't know if wolves are the issue and that the whole plan
is not being addressed. Most biologists agree there is a problem
with bears, but the Governor has taken lethal control of bears
off of the table. The Arizona Department of Fish and Game has a
bison hunt during which department personnel assist the hunters.
In Alaska, the way to focus on removing some bears, as well as
dealing with the wolf issue, would be to establish something
similar to a Governor's permit where two bear tags would be
issued. A person from out of state could participate in a bid
process to target a certain bear that was taking moose calves and
to take a trophy bear. Village people could be hired since they
know more about the area and are more likely to know what is
going on. They might have time to identify the problem bears.
MR. KEELER said he thought the current plan speaks to hiring
locals to do the control using helicopters, but he didn't know if
that would be possible or feasible. He has talked to people in
Fairbanks about the difficulties of fixed wing wolf shoots.
There is the potential of going to Tier 2 for an emergency in the
McGrath area. The last element of the overall plan that would be
needed for public support is some kind of monitoring of all
populations of moose, caribou, wolf, and bear. This would help
to tell the public how effective they are and what's going on.
MR. KEELER told members that part of the problem is funding. The
Governor's permit auction would generate a lot of funds, but
funding from the legislature might also be necessary. Finally,
if people can agree on the same principles, they could get the
Governor to remove the burden that is on the board to make the
decision in a specified sequence.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Mr. Keeler if he is an employee of the
federal government in the Chugach National Forest.
MR. KEELER answered yes, he is the real estate specialist and
deals with land conveyances to both the State and Native
corporations with a primary emphasis on maintaining public uses.
He also deals with permitting issues for power lines, pipelines
and major roadways.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he is an advocate of a proposal before
the board dealing with the Toklat wolf pack.
Number 700
MR. KEELER acknowledged that he made a proposal to the board for
that. However, he has been shown to have a conflict of interest
and will not address that issue.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he is still an advocate for that issue
as a private citizen.
MR. KEELER said he hadn't testified, but he supports the idea.
He has asked questions of the board members to hopefully bring
light to the issue.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he is surprised that the Park Service
actually said a proposal was unnecessary and that the Park
additions created a buffer zone around the original park.
MR. KEELER responded that he was not surprised that the Park
Service said it was unnecessary from a biological standpoint.
The Park Service deals with everything on a total population
scenario. He has tried to address with the Park Service in the
past social management and recreational benefits to the people,
but the Park Service says that is not its mandate, which is to
preserve populations and habitats. When questioned further, the
Park Service supported the idea and recognized the social values
of what was going on. It definitely fears any appearance of the
federal government suggesting actions to the state.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what he would consider a measure of public
support for wolf reduction in the McGrath area or the Upper
Nilchina Basin.
MR. KEELER said he thought public support has already been
demonstrated by members of the hunting and trapping community who
are coming to the board. He has wrestled quite a bit with how to
get other people to support that. When he talked to Joel Bennett
about it, he came back to the original issue of the aerial
hunting initiative that he and other folks worked with. Their
concern is that it doesn't display itself as a biological
emergency; there is the question of defiance because it only
deals with wolves and doesn't address the bears. Mr. Bennett
questioned how everything would follow through.
MR. KEELER said that was part of what led him to the summary he
presented earlier. He needs to bring in more of the information
to get a demonstration of the public's support of that. He would
make that known through the papers, hopefully through the
department that the (indisc.) for a more holistic plan and ask
people to write in.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said it seemed that at the McGrath meetings, the
public support was absolutely overwhelming from the people who
live there, know the problem, and are dependent on the resource.
He didn't know how they could get any higher level of public
support for some kind of predator control action in Unit 19 than
they have right now.
MR. KEELER agreed and said that he thought the public was still
trying to focus on the total issue of wolf control rather than
allowing ADF&G to address the specific elements. He stated:
I don't think you're ever going to have anybody that
totally supported state laws - it's almost impossible
to get the public to step up to. But, if we can start
saying this is how we're doing it in this area, this is
why, here is our plan, here is how we're dealing with
quality issues, with bears, with the governor's type
permit, going to Tier 2 to assure that we're focused on
benefiting the community, then I think the people are
going to have a hard time saying they don't support
doing something that is that focused for that specific
purpose, and especially if the legislature follows
through with the funding that's needed to make sure it
happens and the community does get the benefit.
Number 990
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Keeler if, once appointed, he will need
to follow the political agenda of this governor or whether he
takes his responsibilities from the Alaska Constitution.
MR. KEELER replied that he follows the Constitution. He thought
the Governor might be upset with some of the items the board
would take but he has the option of not reappointing members. He
said the board should focus on serving the people.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the Governor told him as a board member
he could only make decisions based on standards the Governor had
set for his political agenda, one of which is broad based public
support, and that he would decide what that is, not the board.
He also asked what Mr. Keeler would do if the Governor asked him
not to vote for any lethal actions regarding wolves.
MR. KEELER responded that, depending on the situation, he would
make his decision not on what the Governor wants, but on what
would serve the public best. He would vote by his interpretation
of public support, not the Governor's.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he supports the sustained yield principle
incorporated in our Constitution.
MR. KEELER answered yes, he does. He honestly believes that
consumptive use of the wildlife resource in most areas should be
the highest use and we should focus on getting that to the
capacity the habitat can carry without jeopardizing a major die-
off, which would cause greater problems than it solves.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he thought they are facing that problem
now in the McGrath and Cantwell areas and others. The moose
population has fallen way below sustained yield.
MR. KEELER said he believes that problem is there and in a lot of
areas of the State and is growing. However, a lack of
information on the capacities of the areas appears to exist. He
hopes the biologists have the information needed to make those
determinations and, if not, they be funded to get it and get it
soon.
Number 1121
SENATOR PETE KELLY asked Mr. Keeler if he believes he needs to
have public support to make his decisions on the Board of Game.
MR. KEELER replied yes, he does.
SENATOR KELLY asked what statutory or constitutional reference he
could give that says the job of Board of Game members is to
measure the public will.
MR. KEELER replied there is none but as a member who represents
the public, he should try to make some determination of what the
public wants done.
SENATOR KELLY said he thought Mr. Keeler was looking at a broader
elected position rather than an appointed board position. He
asked Mr. Keeler if he believes McGrath needs to be in a Tier 2
situation before wolf control is implemented.
MR. KEELER replied he does.
SENATOR KELLY asked if they should wait until they get to Tier 2.
MR. KEELER replied no, he didn't think so, but to demonstrate to
the public that all of the issues they are concerned about are
being dealt with, Tier 2 should be established as part of the
plan.
SENATOR KELLY asked if before they could do wolf control, they
would be in Tier 2.
MR. KEELER answered yes, if the public wanted him to.
SENATOR KELLY asked him to explain the Governor's permit concept.
MR. KEELER explained that currently a Governor's permit is issued
for sheep hunting. The permit is intended to raise funds to help
manage the dall sheep population. Other states have done the
same thing. In the Arizona bison hunt, state fish and game
personnel assist hunters to make sure they take the bison the
state wants removed. In Alaska, that could be changed to have a
resident hunter from the community ADF&G is trying to help be put
on staff with ADF&G. Then, a permit would be issued for a hunter
during the spring to take two bears, the first being a bear that
has been identified as taking moose calves. That could be
accomplished before the hunter is taken out to take a trophy
bear. In the process you may get one bear or two. He likes the
concept of having an expert from the area assist a hunter to help
support the program.
SENATOR KELLY asked if he supports wolf control in the McGrath
area.
MR. KEELER replied yes, he does.
SENATOR KELLY asked how he would describe wolf control.
MR. KEELER responded that he hoped wolf control would be done by
hiring local people to work directly under the biologists. He
thought using helicopters would improve the program because he
heard from people who flew fixed wing aircraft that they just
couldn't get things right to do the harvest. One man said it
took him five days to get two wolves; however, had he used a
helicopter, he could have taken 10 out of 14.
SENATOR KELLY asked if he disagrees that there is broad public
support for the McGrath area.
MR. KEELER responded that he doesn't disagree at this time.
There is broad support in McGrath; he thought it needed to be
done. But the public needs to be told that all of the issues,
including the bears, are being dealt with and that it is
classified as Tier 2. Then you need to determine what kind of
support you have.
SENATOR KELLY said the Governor doesn't think there is support
there and asked Mr. Keeler what he would do if there wasn't the
support.
MR. KEELER said he would find time to find out why and what it
would take to build it.
SENATOR KELLY asked how long that would take.
MR. KEELER said he didn't know; it would depend on what the
findings are.
SENATOR KELLY asked if Mr. Keeler would need more studies.
MR. KEELER responded that they would need more contact with the
public, not necessarily more studies.
SENATOR KELLY asked if he had the information that wolf control
was needed there and the public disagreed, and they are running
out of time in McGrath, whether Mr. Keeler thinks they have the
time to go through another winter of building this nebulous
public support.
MR. KEELER said he didn't know the situation right now. He tried
to work with Commissioner Rue when he was up there to see what it
would take to get a commitment that something would happen other
than future studies. The Commissioner affirmed that something
would happen on the Toklat and that he would guarantee that both
the funding and the personnel were assigned. Mr. Keeler asked if
that could be done before this calving season and the
Commissioner answered that he didn't think there was time.
SENATOR KELLY asked what will happen if all is said and done and
there still isn't public support.
MR. KEELER said he thought the board would make the best decision
it can and he hoped that by going through the public process, the
board could make a decision that is in the best interest of the
people of McGrath.
SENATOR KELLY asked what his, not the board's, decision would be
if there was no public support for lethal wolf control in
McGrath.
MR. KEELER answered if Tier 2 is in place, if something is done
along the line of the Governor's permit to address bears and a
monitoring plan is set up so you could total the effectiveness of
what they were doing, he would do it.
SENATOR KELLY asked if those things weren't present and the moose
population went from somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 down
to around 1,000, that would be enough.
MR. KEELER replied that he gets different numbers from different
people. One of his biggest concerns is why this area hasn't been
classified as Tier 2.
SENATOR KELLY asked Mr. Keeler for an answer.
MR. KEELER said at a minimum, he would have to have the area in
Tier 2 to say yes to wolf control.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated that Mr. Keeler needs to know that there
is almost no harvest by non-local people in that particular area;
most of the non-area harvest is in the high country. The locals
hunt the rivers in 19D where the problem is.
MR. KEELER responded that there should be no problem going to
Tier 2.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD replied that he thought the people thought it
was unnecessary because that's who is harvesting it anyway.
Number 1478
SENATOR MACKIE said the board adopted an emergency wolf control
plan for the McGrath area. He asked Mr. Keeler if he supported
it.
MR. KEELER answered that he supported most of it. He would
recommend more modifications so that it had more public support.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if he agreed a good public hearing process
occurred and that the people in that particular region know best
in terms of the numbers. He asked if Mr. Keeler believes the
board made the decision with adequate information and an adequate
public hearing process.
MR. KEELER replied he believes the board had the information to
justify the decision it made, but he didn't think it had a full
and adequate public process. He has been hearing at this meeting
of the different gatherings and reports that were done and that
local people came in and disagreed with those reports so he
suspects the amount of public involvement is suspect.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if he agrees that as a member of the board,
he would have the responsibility to look at the biological data
and make decisions based on what is happening with the herds and
with the people who are using those resources. He pointed out
it's extremely difficult a lot of times to build public support
for tough decisions.
MR. KEELER replied yes, he does. But, with the data before him
and with the high potential for bear predation being the biggest
problem, he questions why the board is only dealing with wolves
and not all of the predators.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if he was seated on the board when the
management plan came before it for a vote, whether he would have
supported it.
MR. KEELER answered that he doesn't know all of the information
that was brought to board members.
SENATOR MACKIE asked what part of it that the Governor rejected
Mr. Keeler agrees with.
MR. KEELER replied that he didn't have any explanation of what
the Governor was looking at and why he rejected it; just that he
had.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if Mr. Keeler said he supported most of the
plan, except for the parts the Governor rejected.
MR. KEELER said that was not right.
SENATOR MACKIE said he misunderstood him.
MR. KEELER said he supports the overall concept of what they are
doing. Wolf control is needed, but it's not a stand alone issue.
SENATOR MACKIE asked Mr. Keeler what part of the plan he
disagrees with.
MR. KEELER said he does not support fixed wing harvesting. He has
not dealt with that specific plan. He read it quickly. It
looked like the concept was good but the public would not support
fixed wing harvesting.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if they would support harvesting with
helicopters.
MR. KEELER replied that's where he got the helicopter idea.
Number 1650
SENATOR LINCOLN said in his letter to the Governor of February
24th he talks about efforts to protect the Toklat wolves when
they leave the Denali National Park. She asked if he is aware
that the folks who have lived in that area for many generations
actually trap those wolves. She wanted to know what he thought
about the local folks being able to utilize the wolves for an
income.
MR. KEELER replied that the Alaska Wildlife Alliance has offered
to pay [trappers for] the normal harvest of the wolves in the
area. A study is ongoing to show the breaking strength, etc.,
needed to allow a wolf to be released and yet allow a lynx or
wolverine to be caught in the trap. He hoped that a combination
between the two could be worked out so that there is no economic
loss or loss of opportunity to trap anything except wolves.
SENATOR LINCOLN noted that Mr. Keeler was an ADF&G Advisory
Committee member in Cordova in 1985 and asked what support he had
while he was there and why he served only one year.
MR. KEELER replied that he served only one year because he moved
out of Cordova. Cordova is a small town; board members primarily
represented fishing interests. He was not doing professional
photography at the time but he was hunting in the area. He had
expressed to different people his concern that he could no longer
go out into different bays and have a secluded hunt and that he
would like to be involved in the advisory committee. He went
through the nomination process and members of the board voted him
in.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if he believes he would have support from
the Cordova Fish and Game folks that have been involved in the
past.
MR. KEELER said he couldn't say that; that was 15 years ago and a
lot has changed in Cordova. People may not currently agree with
his views.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if they wouldn't agree with his views as a
photographer of wildlife.
MR. KEELER answered yes. He said he still has a lot of friends
down there and they are wishing him luck with this process but as
far as the make-up of the current advisory committee, he does not
know.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked, when Mr. Keeler referred to full and
adequate public support regarding the whole McGrath area and
beyond, who the "public" is in his mind.
MR. KEELER replied the citizens of Alaska on the major issue of
whether wolf control should occur and what standards should be
set to do it.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if it wouldn't necessarily be the people
who reside in that area, because close to 100 percent of the
local people support predator control in the area. She asked
whether he would weigh the public's interest from the urban areas
more than he would from the bush communities - those who are
affected, because they comprise a smaller population.
MR. KEELER replied that the bush communities must have the
highest consideration. It affects their lifestyles and economics
so their comments must carry more weight.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought it is safe to say that people in
the Anchorage area would not support a predator control program,
but those out in the bush areas do. She asked if he would weigh
more heavily the opinions of the public using those resources.
MR. KEELER replied yes, he would.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked even before a Tier 2 was established.
MR. KEELER replied that he hoped a Tier 2 would be something that
is utilized to offset the concerns and challenges that may come
from those who do not agree with wolf control. Tier 2 would show
that the situation is an emergency and of enough concern that
Tier 2 was established to assure maximum benefit to rural
communities.
SENATOR LINCOLN noted that Mr. Keeler talked about biologists
making the determination. She asked how much credence should be
given to the opinions of the local people who have been there for
many generations and believe that the wolf packs are causing more
damage than the bears - especially since bears den during the
winter and the wolf packs are still doing their kills.
MR. KEELER replied that he put a lot of credence into what the
local people are saying. He tries to work with what they see and
with what the biologists see to develop a plan that deals with
all issues. The biologists may have radio collared bears in the
spring to study calving, for instance. One bear was known to
take an adult moose every two weeks. He thought there are
different levels of information but that the local people need to
be involved.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked when he was talking about helicopters and
assisting hunters and hiring local folks, where he thought the
money might come from.
MR. KEELER replied he hopes a lot of it would come from the
Governor's permit that he mentioned earlier. It might also be
proper to use some of the license and tag fees. If that's not
enough, he hopes the legislature, through the general community
assistance program, would direct funds for management.
Number 1993
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said the McGrath area situation hit the
news in 1996, but the predator problem existed before that. At
that time the Governor promised he would do something for the
people in that area. The people of that area feel that before
Tier 2 comes in, they would like to see predator control because
they see that as the major contributor to the decline of the
moose population. He asked if Mr. Keeler believes that.
MR. KEELER replied he does, but he believes Tier 2 is part of the
predator control process because man is one of the major
predators.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN noted that Mr. Keeler said that before he
would look at predator control, he would look at bear predation,
success of hunters, and natural causes, excluding moose dying of
natural causes in district 19D East. He pointed out that all
computer models have come concluded that in less than two years,
the area is going to be out of moose because of wolf predation.
He asked if Mr. Keeler has seen that study.
MR. KEELER said he has not seen that study.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said that's what frustrates the people in
the district. Every time someone comes in new, they have to
educate the educated.
MR. KEELER said he can understand that but he's been saying to
people there that they have to break away from doing more studies
and instead actually do the science - do the control efforts with
the proper monitoring program. They need to address all the
issues so they can determine what's going on. The Governor said
the Academy of Sciences' report says we have not done a complete
job in the past so no one can say for sure what will happen.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said he was hearing Mr. Keeler say that
ADF&G and the Governor haven't really done their homework in the
two or so studies they already did.
MR. KEELER said he didn't have all the information, but he was
going by the concerns expressed by other people. He understood
that various studies were underway but, because of budget cuts,
ADF&G had to shift its funding and could not continue so it does
not have recent data which concerns him.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN agreed that concerns him, too. He asked
where he thought "the educated got all their information."
MR. KEELER said he didn't understand the question.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN repeated the question and asked whether
they get their information themselves or whether they go to a
village and talk to the people.
MR. KEELER said he thought the biologists just did their own
studies and do not involve the communities as much as they
should. He assumed their population estimates were derived by
biologists flying in patterns around the area. The problem is
that ADF&G hasn't even been able to do the recent population
surveys to get any information so the "educated" have a gap.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said he made his point of having to talk to
local people.
MR. KEELER said he hoped he could spend as much time as possible
with local people if he were confirmed to the board.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN stated the second paragraph of Mr.
Keeler's letter of application to the Governor emphasizes his
hunting and trapping background. He asked Mr. Keeler if he ever
depended on hunting and trapping as a primary means of support.
MR. KEELER replied that when he was eight years old, his father
handed him three shells and said he had to come back with two
rabbits because they had company coming for dinner. He is
familiar with depending on wildlife during times of financial
stress.
Number 2212
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said, regarding Mr. Keeler's statement that man
is one of the major predators, he thought the people of McGrath
would like to be one of the major predators but they find that
the harvestable surplus left for human harvest is about five
percent. He asked Mr. Keeler what percentage of the reproductive
capacity of the animals should be available for human harvest.
He asked whether we should set 90 percent for animal harvest and
10 percent for human harvest, or 90 to 10. He asked where one
draws the line between viable populations.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said there are two schools of thought; one says
you can reach equilibrium at the low side of the scale with
substantial predator populations and the prey species held down
from recovering for a twenty year cycle. The other says if you
have good habitat, which most people believe you have in 19D
East, that you can have the high side of the cycle. The
difference in the McGrath area is that you might have a resident
population of 4,000 to 5,000 moose versus a resident population
of 1,000 moose. He asked where Mr. Keeler stands on maximum
sustained yield, not sustained yield. Maximum sustained yield is
the term that most people of Alaska would like to see our system
work toward because the conflict is avoided if you have the
resource.
MR. KEELER said he spoke too quickly in the beginning. In
managing the population, if one can determine the carrying
capacity of the land for vegetation and everything else and take
into consideration what might happen in a harsh winter, hopefully
a biologist would be able to give a number of what the population
should be. That would set the high population amount and account
for acceptable risk. From that point the question becomes the
demand and how the demand will be filled locals for subsistence,
for residents who travel to the area, and for nonresidents who
come in from out-of-state.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked about the status of the current Arizona
air-borne predator control program regarding coyotes.
MR. KEELER said he didn't know; he hasn't been involved in game
management down there for about 10 years.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD added that according to his information, Arizona
still maintains a very active air-borne predator control program
with the wolf's smaller cousin.
MR. KEELER said that could be, especially in the open desert
country of Arizona. He didn't know if it would work in the
timbered areas.
TAPE 00-8, SIDE B [SENATE RESOURCES TAPE NUMBER]
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said Mr. Keeler mentioned something about the
Commissioner's concern for the Toklat wolf pack and asked if the
Commissioner said he would implement the McGrath predator control
program if the board took action to implement protection for the
Toklat wolf pack.
MR. KEELER replied he didn't say he would implement the plan.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he said he would be more inclined to
implement the plan.
MR. KEELER said the feeling he got was that the Commissioner
would be much more inclined to have the plan modified by a group
of people so the Governor would see it as acceptable to the
broader public.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if saving the 10 or 12 wolves that live in
McKinley Park is the ransom for letting the people of McGrath eat
moose.
MR. KEELER responded that everyone uses different terms, but he
understood that they are looking at Toklat as a demonstration of
how Alaska deals with all aspects of wildlife management. Once
that is demonstrated, the Governor would be more easily able to
get full public support for the total program.
Number 2322
SENATOR TAYLOR said he wondered what Mr. Keeler meant by "full
public support" and asked him if had read our Constitution.
MR. KEELER said he has.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he realized it contains sustained yield
as a mandate and that the elected legislature and him, as an
appointed person, act as trustees on behalf of the people of
Alaska to make certain that a sustained yield is maintained
within our game and fish populations.
MR. KEELER replied yes.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he previously asked Mr. Keeler whether he
would resign if the Governor told him to do something that was in
disagreement with that and Mr. Keeler said he would.
MR. KEELER replied that he didn't say he would resign.
SENATOR TAYLOR clarified that Mr. Keeler said he'd go along with
the Constitution as opposed going along with the Governor's
political agenda at the time.
MR. KEELER said that is correct.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he had read the fish and game statutes,
since he's a biologist, and was he somewhat familiar with them.
MR. KEELER replied that he is not a biologist; he has a degree in
forest land management. He noted he has looked through the ADF&G
regulations.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked him to cite the place where it says that
before the board can take an action, there must be broad based
public support.
MR. KEELER said he couldn't point to it in the regulations but,
as a person representing the public, he needs to have support for
what he is doing. He felt the Governor has hung everything on
broad based support, not at him looking at the Constitution and
regulations.
SENATOR TAYLOR said what he's really saying is that the Governor
came up with the words, "broad based public support" and that Mr.
Keeler is not going to act on anything on this board that the
Governor doesn't decide equates with broad based public support -
even though that may be contrary to our statutes, our rules and
regulations, and our Constitution.
MR. KEELER said that isn't correct.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how he explains the dichotomy that he holds
up as a standard that must be met before he'll pass rules and
regulations through the Board of Game - a standard that is not in
our Constitution or statutes or regulations, but is only some
vague concept the Governor has given him. He asked how that
equates with his duty as a steward of the resources and as a
public official if appointed.
MR. KEELER responded:
The Governor set his standards for what he determines
as public support and beneficial uses of the resource.
The beneficial uses of the resource is one of the keys
and the maximum benefit of the resource is for its
people - it deals with all people, not specific groups.
So there are different ways you can try and look at
things and vote different positions. I look it that
the resources are for conservation purposes and for the
maximum benefit of its people which includes everyone.
There needs to be support from the people on how the
resources are used.
SENATOR TAYLOR informed him that this legislature appropriated
$800,000 for intense game management. The Governor chose to
spend it not on intense management, but on wolf studies. He
didn't know where Mr. Keeler got the information that the
legislature had somehow reduced ADF&G's budget and it was unable
to do surveys on wolves for intensive game management.
MR. KEELER said for the last ten years different ADF&G staff have
been commenting about how their budget has been constantly cut.
He's not sure who's cutting it, but the legislature has the most
control.
SENATOR TAYLOR suggested that they didn't cut their budget, but
gave them an $800,000 increase in that area. Unfortunately, the
Governor and Commissioner chose not to spend it the way the
legislature told them to spend it, which would have generated the
information that he needs to have today to make decisions.
MR. KEELER thanked him for the information. He asked if ADF&G
was limited to using money for intensive management to do these
studies or whether they should be trying to get ahead of the
curve before getting into intensive management.
SENATOR TAYLOR said they never used any of it for intensive
management; they used all of it for studies.
Number 2065
SENATOR PETE KELLY asked, if the carrying capacity of an area was
4,000 to 6,000 moose, such as in McGrath, but only 1,000 moose
were left so Tier 2 and wolf control were applied, and the
population of moose increased to 2,500 - 3,000 and then hunters
came in from outside of that area and the population dropped
again, whether wolf control could be done at that point or
whether they would have to have Tier 2 again.
MR. KEELER answered that he hoped things would change enough
during the process so that you don't have to go to a wolf control
measure. He hoped they could come up with another system. He
hoped enough information would be gained to know that the wolf
population was doing and possibly look at drawing permit hunters
up to get more information about what the human uses were before
going to Tier 2. Hopefully there would be enough information to
avoid the Tier 2.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he thought there could be a drawing
system where you have a customary and traditional subsistence use
without being in Tier 2.
MR. KEELER replied that he didn't know how that would be
designed; that would be up to the crafters of the process.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he thought you couldn't limit the
subsistence harvest by drawing; you have to go to Tier 2 before
you get there or it just doesn't work.
MR. KEELER replied that was his assumption.
Number 1930
SENATOR KELLY asked if a tourism boycott in the situation he just
described would affect his decision.
MR. KEELER replied no.
SENATOR KELLY asked if he was very familiar with the intensive
management statute.
MR. KEELER replied that he isn't very familiar with it.
Number 1900
CO-CHAIR MASEK [of the House Resources Standing Committee] said
that Mr. Keeler made a statement in the Anchorage Daily News that
Alaska's wildlife belongs to all Alaskans but that hunting and
trapping seasons limit consumptive uses of wildlife to certain
times of the year and that nonconsumptive uses are available all
year long. She asked Mr. Keeler to explain his position that the
Board of Game, previous to his appointment, did not manage
wildlife for all Alaskans.
MR. KEELER answered that there have been proposals before the
board that they did not act on that represented some of the
public. There have been issues that caused the public to step
forward and use the initiative process for the game management
which to him is an indication that the board is not acting for
all Alaskans.
CO-CHAIR MASEK responded that didn't really answer the question.
She said in Alaska there has never been a case where hunters and
trappers have pushed to exclude other uses of wildlife to benefit
themselves. Considering the millions of acres of land in Alaska
that are already closed to hunting and that intensive management
may not take place on over two-thirds of the lands in Alaska, why
he believes persons, such as himself, who openly profess closing
more areas to hunting and trapping, should be appointed to the
board.
MR. KEELER answered he believes the watchable wildlife element,
the nonconsumptive element, has been excluded from the board
process, either directly or indirectly. A friend of his in
Fairbanks overheard a board member say, "If you don't hunt, we
don't want to talk to you." Actions the board has displayed have
caused the public to walk away from the process. It's extremely
unusual to have members of the Sierra Club and similar
organizations come forward. When people go to advisory meetings,
the vote against anything that comes up that anyone interprets as
a nonconsumptive use is usually 99 percent. Only one member who
ever served on the board did not hold a hunting license. People
are looking at it as a very skewed system and he's representing
them.
Number 1780
CO-CHAIR MASEK stated that hunters do not try to impose their
values on society by requiring everyone to become hunters. She
asked why he believes the board will be more fair by having
persons such as himself appointed who wish to further restrict
hunting and trapping, which she views as an open attack on the
values of her people and many other Alaskans.
MR. KEELER responded that hunters impose their values by not
recognizing other people's desires and needs and they are trying
to impose their values to prevent changes that are occurring
nationwide. He emphasized that he totally supports the primary
use of our wildlife resources be for rural residents for
subsistence and then to maintain as much hunting opportunity as
possible, but he repeated that a change in society is taking
place.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked if he knew how many acres of land are
restricted in Alaska right now.
MR. KEELER replied that about 450 million acres of land are
closed, the National Park System lands. All of the other federal
lands - BLM and National Forest lands are open to full hunting.
There's a couple of small refuges and sanctuaries, like Mc Neil,
that are closed.
CO-CHAIR MASEK said right now 75 millions acres are restricted in
the national wildlife refuges; national parks have 54 million
acres; BLM restricted areas equal 26 million acres; national
forest conservation units contain 14 million acres; and the U.S.
Department of Defense lands equal 2 million acres - a total of
171 million acres, about the size of the state of Texas. She
asked his stand on any future legislation at the state or federal
level to further restrict access to people who live in Alaska.
She asked if he believes we already have enough acres set aside
for protection.
MR. KEELER replied that he thinks every case needs to be judged
on its own merit. A prime example is the Tolkat wolf pack where
a world class situation has developed. Seventy or eighty percent
of those home ranges are currently in a protected area of the
Park Service. If the State steps forward and coordinates
management with the Park Service to manage that world class
resource, he would be in favor of closing the area to that one
activity. He does not support general closures and [indisc]
closures.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how he would react if the Fairbanks' group
that is basically responsible for saving the Forty Mile caribou
herd by putting up a private bounty of $300 per wolf offered the
same bounty on the Toklat pack.
MR. KEELER said he wouldn't be happy, but it's their personal
choice.
SENATOR GREEN asked if Mr. Keeler's November 2 letter on the
Toklat wolf special had been referred to during the meeting.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said it had not.
SENATOR GREEN said she had in her packet an article [by Mr.
Keeler] soliciting support from people around the nation. Some
of the language was derogatory. The article notes that Mr.
Keeler seems to have had wolf karma over the last 10 years and he
stated, "We have a legislature that seems to be led by predator
control supporters. We hope to put pressure on our stalemated
Alaskan political officials and have the interested land managers
work together to protect these wolves within their entire home
range. She said the officials currently insist on managing the
Denali wolf population as a whole and ignore the international
value of the watchable wildlife traits that are being passed on
in this specific pack of wolves. We urge you to contact.... Our
only enemy is apathy." The article then asks people to buy
certain products.
SENATOR GREEN said she noticed that Mr. Keeler works with the
Chugach National Forest. She noted some people's livelihood is
partly dependent on photography. She asked if he saw that as a
conflict and whether his appointment to the board would have a
chilling effect on his ability to write these jaundiced letters.
MR. KEELER responded that regarding his work with the Chugach
National Forest, he would be taking leave without pay any time he
dealt with any issues of the board. Should any issues come up
that he has been involved with, he would excuse himself from the
debate, similar to what other board members do. He recognizes
that his opinion will be silenced because he is getting
information from the public and he doesn't want to sway them with
his personal opinions.
SENATOR GREEN commented that she doesn't see how he could
disconnect himself from the recent past.
MR. KEELER replied that he would disconnect himself in the same
way every board member tries to disconnect from their issues. He
didn't think any public servants are totally isolated in their
opinions.
Number 1383
REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER asked, based upon Mr. Keeler's relative
position to this legislature, whether he would characterize his
confirmation as a long shot.
MR. KEELER replied that he honestly didn't know and hadn't had a
chance to present himself to most of the legislators. He thought
the Governor appointed him because he felt the legislature would
confirm him.
REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER said he appreciates the answer but does
not agree. He would characterize Mr. Keeler's appointment as
that of a political sacrificial lamb. He thought Mr. Keeler had
been put forward to politicize game management rather than
provide for continued adherence to good biology based upon the
sustained yield principle which is a constitutional requirement.
MR. KEELER responded that he doesn't agree with that. If they
had monitored him to see how he is working things out with the
board, they would know that he has no fear of speaking up and
trying to get other people to be comfortable enough to speak up
and bring information that's needed to the board. He thought the
Governor saw him as a bridge to get away from some of the
conflict going in wildlife management.
SENATOR MACKIE said he looked at some of the letters written by
Mr. Keeler and that in nearly all of them he referred to the
Alaska Outdoor Council or its president as the "Freemen" of
Alaska. Because he has one vote for people who serve on these
kinds of boards, he hopes they would have an open mind. He
asked, since Mr. Keeler has been extremely critical of that
particular group, whether he could serve fairly and listen to
people's testimony and consider that they have points of view
they would like to offer in the public process.
MR. KEELER replied he could and encouraged him to look at other
letters written in that era for a better understanding of the
pressure he was under from Mr. Arno of the Alaska Outdoor
Council. He had been called different names and other things.
He didn't think it was appropriate to have a group doing a
personal attack.
SENATOR MACKIE said he wondered if he harbored any hard feelings
against the group for being called names in the past.
MR. KEELER replied that he didn't have anything against the
group; several members of the Council had testified that he
worked with.
Number 1110
SENATOR TAYLOR said his only concern is that when reviewing those
letters, Mr. Keeler was upset when Senator Taylor introduced a
bill requiring members serving on the Alaska Board of Game to at
least have a hunting license.
MR. KEELER agreed that upset him.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked who pays for the Alaska Board of Game and
the management.
MR. KEELER replied the money comes from hunting licenses, tags
and fees and the Pitman Robertson Act. He asked if the hunting
license and tag fee is the fee for removing a public resource for
a private purpose and whether it should also be used for the rest
of the public's needs and desires.
SENATOR TAYLOR replied that is what the game board members swear
to do when they come on the job and he assumed that Mr. Keeler
would do that same thing.
MR. KEELER said he will, but it doesn't mean he needs to have a
hunting license to do it.
SENATOR TAYLOR said because he proposed such a law, Mr. Keeler
labeled him an extremist. In another letter he said Nicole Evans
could not get confirmed because she worked for an environmental
organization and that Vic Van Ballenberg, an expert moose
biologist with years of field experience in unit 13, would not
commit himself to wolf control at any cost so he was not
confirmed. Mr. Keeler then went on to say that any candidate who
was not actively pro-hunting is blocked from confirmation by
legislators who made recent confirmation hearings sound like the
Spanish Inquisition.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked him if he felt his asking him today if he
understood the Constitution, the State laws and regulations was
somehow subjecting him to a Spanish Inquisition.
MR. KEELER replied no; he did not believe that Senator Taylor or
any of the folks there today had grilled him to the degree that
Nicole and Vic were. He was at their hearing and they were
grilled an excessive amount. To the day there isn't a member on
the board who doesn't hold a hunting license.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked him if he holds a hunting license.
MR. KEELER said he does.
SENATOR TAYLOR said someone like him could get on the board then.
MR. KEELER said he hoped he would, but he would wonder if Senator
Taylor would vote for him if he didn't have one.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he hadn't decided whether he was going to
vote for him or not even though he has one.
MR. KEELER said he was trying to be straightforward and hoped to
have the opportunity to visit with them one on one to talk about
issues.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked him for his testimony and announced that
the Senate members of the joint committee would take an at-ease
at 4:35 while the House members took whatever action they wished.
Number 1000
[THE FOLLOWING IS A MEETING OF THE HOUSE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
ONLY.]
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked the members of the House Resources Committee
if they had questions.
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN moved to send a letter to the Speaker of
the House recommending that Leo Keeler not be confirmed to the
Board of Game. He asked for unanimous consent. There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
CO-CHAIR MASEK adjourned the House Resources Committee meeting at
4:40 p.m.
[THE FOLLOWING IS A MEETING OF THE SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
ONLY.]
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 4:41 p.m. and announced that a motion was in order on
the confirmation.
SENATOR LINCOLN moved to forward the name of Mr. Keeler for
confirmation to the Board of Game to the full body.
SENATOR KELLY objected and moved to forward Mr. Keeler's name to
the President of the Senate with a negative recommendation.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said it was easiest to deal with the first
motion and the objection.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she just wanted to forward it on, but when
committee members sign the transmittal letter they have an
opportunity to sign a "do" or "do not confirm" recommendation.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD responded that if everyone signs "do not
confirm," it will have the same effect of sending that
recommendation.
SENATOR LINCOLN explained her intent was to forward it without
any recommendation.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said the question before the committee is
whether to adopt Senator Lincoln's motion to forward the
"standard neutral letter," to which an objection was raised. He
asked those who object to raise their hands. SENATORS HALFORD,
TAYLOR, and KELLY objected, and the motion failed.
SENATOR KELLY moved to send a negative recommendation to the
President of the Senate regarding Mr. Keeler. There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
[End of the portion relating to the confirmation of Leo Keeler to
the Alaska Board of Game. For the Senate Resources Committee
hearing on SB 267, see the Senate minutes for this same date.]
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